Posts by cognizant dissident

65

Sexual Abuse and the Reduction in the Belief in God

by Lady Lee in

in my last year of university i wrote a paper called traumatic child sexual abuse, psychological death and the reduction in the belief in the power of god.

it was a term paper for a class on death and dying for a religion course i took.

not exactly what the prof expected but he agreed it made some excellent points.

cognizant dissident

OK, Vamp: I just wanted to check which side of Pascal's wager you were taking before I commented.

Pascal's wager presupposes that there is an alternative to believing in God that carries some sort of negative punishment or occurrence. No doubt this supposition was based upon the Christian concept of going to hell if you don't believe.

But if I were a human being raised by atheists, and had no prior knowledge of any God concept or religious concept, would I come to that conclusion?

Let us say, I did come to the conclusion that there was some God-like creator of all things, out there somewhere. Why would I then automatically assume that he had instituted a punishment for not believing in him/her/it? Why would I assume there was an after-life? Why would I assume the Bible was its word?

That is the false dilemma in Pascal's wager. The entire argument is predicated on there only being two alternatives: not believing in God, or believing in the God of the Christians and the prevailing Christian theology of the time. When in fact, there are dozens if not hundreds of other permutations.

If I came to the conclusion that God exists, why would I conclude that any of the stories told about him by other humans are true? If I concluded one must surely be true, which one would it be? What if I choose the wrong story? Will I still be punished by all the other permutations of God that exists? If I choose Jehovah, will I be destroyed by Allah? If I choose Allah, will I be destroyed by Vishnu?

Wouldn't an all-knowing creator know I didn't truly believe but was only saying I did just so I didn't become eternal toast? How do I sincerely convince myself beyond all doubt, when in fact, I do have strong doubts? is it even possible to knowingly delude oneself?

Surely you can see the dilemma of a sincere atheist who wishes a death bed conversion just to hedge my bets?

65

Sexual Abuse and the Reduction in the Belief in God

by Lady Lee in

in my last year of university i wrote a paper called traumatic child sexual abuse, psychological death and the reduction in the belief in the power of god.

it was a term paper for a class on death and dying for a religion course i took.

not exactly what the prof expected but he agreed it made some excellent points.

cognizant dissident

Caliber:

I think most of the people in this world, men and women, who look outside themselves, to other humans (who come replete with all sorts of agendas, both hidden and apparent) as an absolute authority.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating for anarchy, or no social rules whatsoever. I"m not advocating survival of the fittest. I have noticed that when I say I'm an atheist, my father and many others on this forum, automatically assume that's what atheism entails.

Sometimes, someone is more experienced than us, has more knowledge of a subject, and it would be wise to listen to them and give due weight to their advice. But never stop questioning and accept someone else as absolute authority, religious or political, or personally. Because therein lies the slippery slope to atrocities, in my opinion.

Always ask yourself, is this action harmful to myself or others? Is it helpful? Go further and define harm, define helpful. Question even those definitions. If it can be both, then does the ends justify the means? How do we reconcile that as we will have to take responsibility? No saying my commander told me to do it, or God told me to do it, or my parent told me to do it, or my friends told me to do it. Decide and take responsibility for that. Don't give away that power to others. So few people do though, in my observation. It really is much easier to be a follower in life. Not to mention safer!

57

This is sickening and disturbing to think that American soldiers did this.

by StoneWall in

when i first read over this on msnbc news today, it was truly morbid of just one soldier to do something like this.. but to think that 12 are being implicated tells you how truly sick a lot in the u.s. forces are.. what is the difference between what they did and what hitlers soldiers did?.

here is the link for the whole article:.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39380805/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/.

cognizant dissident

Terror and torture are not a problem of any one nation or culture. It is a human problem. It is a problem of humans wanting to dominate other humans by any means possible. It will never be solved and we will always have terror and torture until people as a whole can overcome their desire to dominate each other at all costs.

65

Sexual Abuse and the Reduction in the Belief in God

by Lady Lee in

in my last year of university i wrote a paper called traumatic child sexual abuse, psychological death and the reduction in the belief in the power of god.

it was a term paper for a class on death and dying for a religion course i took.

not exactly what the prof expected but he agreed it made some excellent points.

cognizant dissident

Vamp: (I hope you don't mind if I call you vamp . It's kind of my pet name for you now.)

Do you mean it is safer to hedge your bets and believe in God, just in case he happens to exist?

65

Sexual Abuse and the Reduction in the Belief in God

by Lady Lee in

in my last year of university i wrote a paper called traumatic child sexual abuse, psychological death and the reduction in the belief in the power of god.

it was a term paper for a class on death and dying for a religion course i took.

not exactly what the prof expected but he agreed it made some excellent points.

cognizant dissident

That is a wonderful answer thanks... so each gets to decide

Terrifying concept, isn't it.

Funny enough, when I told my father the PO I wasn't a JW anymore, that was the thing that upset him the most, I think. After all our arguments, he kept harping back to that one in the end. "So you think you are a free moral agent now, do you? You think you can decide for yourself what is right and wrong?" The thought of that made him visibly angry, for some reason.

Of course, what he failed to realize is that men have been deciding for themselves since time began and attributing it to God. They have also been deciding for women. I understand changes in the status quo are upsetting to some.

404

The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

dear ones.

rather, it is our adversary who says we will do anything... anything... to avoid it.

a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. even curse god to his face.

cognizant dissident

Another favorite story which fits well in this thread, I think:

An old native Indian man was fishing by a stream in the middle of the woods. A Christian missionary made the long journey of many days and hiked through the woods to visit him. He sat beside him and he began to tell him about God, heaven and hell and all the teachings of the gospels. The Indian man listens to it all quietly, without a word.

When the missionary is finished sharing his teachings, the old Indian asks him, "Let me see if I understand you. If I believe in your God, and let you baptize me in this river, then I will go to heaven, but if I don't believe in him and don't let you baptize me, then I will go to hell and be tortured in fire for all eternity?"

"That's correct," says the missionary.

"What about all the people in the world who have never heard about any of this before?", asks the old man? "Will they burn in hell forever too?"

"No," says the missionary. "God will forgive them because they didn't know".

The old Indian thinks about this for a second and says, "Then why, oh why, did you come here and tell me!"

404

The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

dear ones.

rather, it is our adversary who says we will do anything... anything... to avoid it.

a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. even curse god to his face.

cognizant dissident

But I ask you... are you, CD, the sum total of your body of flesh? Or is there also you... who is on the INSIDE of that vessel? What if you lost your arms? Your legs? Your own heart? A lung? A kidney? What does ANY of that have to do with who YOU are... INSIDE? Nothing. Indeed, your own heart could be removed and replaced with another's. Yet, you would NOT become that person. Because you are NOT your flesh. You are SO much more!

I think you've hit upon the crux of the difference in beliefs here Shelby. The "I" that we think we are, the "self" if you will, may not be the sum total of body parts but it it is the sum total of our experiences, thoughts and perceptions accumulated over a life time and stored in the memory areas of our brains. When someone has lost their memory through dementia, or trauma, we say, "they are not the person they were. The person we loved is gone." Or, when someone is brain dead and unconscious, we usually pull the plug, because we know the person we know is gone.

Oh, but we do have survival instincts in our species. We don't want to die. We're terrified of it. We're terrified that "I" will cease to exist. We can't fathom it. We are so terrified that we must make up stories about having conscious spirits that live on after those neurons stop firing and our flesh begins to decay. The sheer horror of watching the flesh of our loved ones rot in the ground would be too much to bear if we did not.

I'm not special. I know I will rot in the ground some day just like every other living creature on this planet and so will the son whom I love more than my own breath. I am as terrified as the next person of my "self" and my ego ceasing to exist. But I am also brave, which is courage to go on and face the reality of this world we live in despite the fear. I take the beauty of it and the horror of it and I don't ask for another reality that is better than the one I've been given. I have learned not to comfort myself with false stories of the mind that do not have a shred of evidence to fortify them.

Does that mean I'm not a spiritual person? I see the human spirit, with its duality of fear and courage, shame and pride, beauty and ugliness, hate and love and I accept it all with compassion because I share it all. It is the same for all of us. None of us gets out of here alive.

Quote from Ram Das: I don't understand why everyone is so afraid of dying? Why are they so afraid of ceasing to exist for all eternity after their death? "I" didn't exist for millions of years before my birth, and it didn't bother me one bit!

404

The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

dear ones.

rather, it is our adversary who says we will do anything... anything... to avoid it.

a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. even curse god to his face.

cognizant dissident

So... what is the logic behind your fear... and your failure to test it out?

You make two assumptions here and then draw a faulty conclusion based upon your faulty assumptions. First assumption is that I haven't tested out what you've said, second assumption is that I haven't tested it out because I'm afraid. The faulty conclusion is that if I had tested out your methodology, then I would have arrived at the same conclusion as you, therefore I could not have tested it out. Circular reasoning 101.

In fact, there is a far simpler alternative. I'm not afraid, I did test out your methodology for "seeing" and "hearing" with the spirit, and it didn't work because your system is flawed. You just refuse to consider that possibility. I'm going to assume that it's because YOU are very afraid of what that might mean to your "specialness". However, I'm honest enough to admit that is an assumption on my part, and I could indeed be wrong.

You could in fact, be completely delusional, in which case, I probably am being mean and unkind by debating with you. However, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and just assuming your ego was a little out of control just like the rest of us.

404

The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

dear ones.

rather, it is our adversary who says we will do anything... anything... to avoid it.

a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. even curse god to his face.

cognizant dissident

You know I think I actually understand your point, Shelby, Tec and Journey On. I don't agree with it and I think it is totally illogical, but I get your point. You are saying first I have to put aside my common senses, (and by common sense I mean the senses that we all do have in common and by which we humans perceive our worlds) and believe in something, I can't see, hear, feel, taste or smell. Then that being will make itself apparent to me on another level of sensory perception.

Except there are already billions of people on this planet who do the same thing on a daily basis, (I used to be one of them). And your method just doesn't work for the vast majority of them. But they still keep trying, believing it will some day, because they have been told that it will by another human being since they were babies and the human brain is nothing if not perseverant, even past the point of all logic and reason.

As NVL pointed out, your answer to me is just another very long winded way of giving me the same old tired argument: I didn't hear because I lacked something that I shouldn't have lacked. According to Journey-On, I'm supposed to build my own receptor, when it would really just be so much simpler for an omnipotent God to build a better transmitter. Let's face it, if God wanted everyone to hear him, then everyone would hear him. They don't because he doesn't want them to or he doesn't exist.

Journey-On: No one is spitting on Shelby (such a dramatic analogy designed to build up the persecution complex). She wouldn't be here if they were. Pointing out flaws in logic and reason is not spitting. Shelby is here subjecting her faith to a public debate among unbelievers because that is exactly what she wants to do and chooses to do.

15

HHHHEEEELLLLPPPP MMMMEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Judge Dread in

i'mmmmmmmm mmmmeltingggggggg!!!!!!!!!.

it was 113 in los angeles today.. 107 where i live.. 106 in santa monica which is always the coolest city in the l.a. area.. power outages, fires........all we need is an earthquake.. jdw .

cognizant dissident

Ice cold showers will usually cool you down for a few hours, especially if taken right before bed, they will help you get a good night sleep